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Old 12-21-2018, 09:41 PM   #826
frankenbeemer
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it's documented, i posted details about it already, and if you're not going to bother to read my arguments, then no, i don't care about anything else you have to say either, we can just both ignore each other

Did you ever figure out where you posted those details?
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:14 AM   #827
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well it is the typical response around here, isn't it?

looking at you, pointedly, right now.
It's amazing that someone as "woke" as yourself doesn't even realize the irony in your reply.

I'll throw out the peace pipe, I suspect we aren't as far away as we may think.

Can we have a discussion without the constant "gotchas" and pedantic bullshit? I can if you can.
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:45 PM   #828
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It's amazing that someone as "woke" as yourself doesn't even realize the irony in your reply.

I'll throw out the peace pipe, I suspect we aren't as far away as we may think.

Can we have a discussion without the constant "gotchas" and pedantic bullshit? I can if you can.
yeah, i'm ready to bury the hatchet and hit the peace pipe (yay california, my dispensary was open on the 23rd!).

after 2 years i am pretty fatigued of having the same arguments with different people in this thread.

how about we start with current events: discussing whether or not it's a good thing that the proud boy leadership is falling apart?

that's satisfying as all hell to me, but they are far from the only white supremacist movement out there; they're just the most well-known one.

extra points: i'd still like a good answer as to why we have the 2A at all if citizens should not have violence as a last resort when diplomacy and debate fails. you mentioned the OKC bombing recently and i know you're old enough to remember it, as i am, but it hits closer to home for you, i'm sure. mcveigh was a white supremacist, espoused "the learned protocols of the elders of zion", the whole nine yards. so we already know how dangerous they can be. dude got a higher kill count than the al-queda WTC bombing that happened around the same time, against a much smaller target.

(amusing/ironic side note: mcveigh and i were both army combat engineers. so was the DC sniper. perhaps you should need a security clearance to work in a job that apparently radicalizes people, or attracts those already radicalized.)

also merry xmas.
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Old 12-25-2018, 08:46 PM   #829
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I think them falling apart is fantastic. I truly dislike the very vocal and minor extremes. It only serves to make the 90% more apathetic. It does not help our ability to have a calm dialogue and try to find a reasonable compromise.

I'm torn on the 2A. I get your point on violence not being owned by the government, but I also don't think violence against people who disagree with you, and only because they disagree with you is a good strategy to get people on your side.

And that fucking piece shit left something like 30 children Orphans.

As far as security clearance, that's fucking difficult too. There have been plenty of people pass background checks, that later go on to do horrible shit.

How do we draw the line? That's a fucking tough one!

Merry Christmas to you as well! Hope you had a good one!
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Old 12-26-2018, 12:45 PM   #830
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I think them falling apart is fantastic. I truly dislike the very vocal and minor extremes. It only serves to make the 90% more apathetic. It does not help our ability to have a calm dialogue and try to find a reasonable compromise.
the story of that gavin dude is truly bizarre. he co-founded Vice, which is arguably the most left-leaning media outlet we have- a consistently liberal slant, with the occasional bone thrown to us leftists- and then went on to start the proud boys- a nationalist, racist, misogynist movement that is basically a starter kit for "how to be an asshole in modern America".

what was his endgame? radicalize everyone to make more news happen? how is he monetizing that- a clothing line of black polo shirts with gold trim? i don't get it, but i'm pretty sure his D&D character's alignment is chaotic evil.

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I'm torn on the 2A. I get your point on violence not being owned by the government, but I also don't think violence against people who disagree with you, and only because they disagree with you is a good strategy to get people on your side.
here you are touching on the inherent flaw in decentralized movements like occupy and antifa- they lack the kind of doctrine, and command and control, that i'm used to.

the army sent me to three schools- engineer, medic, and signal. that was my "bachelor's degree". i can shape a conflict space, stop the bleeding if you're hurt, and keep comms up. i'm not qualified to lead this movement and i'm not going to try.

there are no rules of engagement or training manuals, and that's a problem.

there are no PR flacks shaping the message, and that's a problem.

there are plenty of dumbass career privates in the army, and the same goes for antifa.

movements like these emerge and black-bloc tactics get engaged when enough people get sufficiently pissed off to put themselves at their chosen calculated risk for what they consider to be the greater good. if this is happening, then polite discourse has already failed.

(PS: you actually made me think about and compose this response for about 10 minutes which is what we *should* be doing here, so have a relevant track that came up in my spotify during the process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bqDDmA7cw )
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Old 12-28-2018, 04:58 AM   #831
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The weird thing with Vice, years and years ago, I used to subscribe. It used to be a great rag that did great investigative journalism (which is why I originally pursued and received a Journalism degree, JFC, 13 years ago. Not because of VICE, but because I was young and dumb and thought I could make a difference).

It's now been taken over by Ivy League children that think reading the BBC, RT, Al Jazeera, etc, makes you an expert on, basically everything. While having basically no life experience in the country they live in. And all other kinds of ridiculous articles they publish.

His staff now, sucks. 10 years ago they used to do really great, long, well researched and written pieces. Maybe they still do on occasion, but I canceled my subscription when the content moved away from that great stuff to other "issues."


Regarding the 2A, Antifa, and other movements. It took us what, three years, to calm down and understand the other side.

It doesn't matter what movement you have, that's why I originally referenced the great MLK Jr., violence doesn't get people on your side; honest, open debate can at least help bridge the gap. So you may not agree on everything, but you can understand what the other side is fighting for or trying protect.

For instance, I'm a bit of hypocrite in this regard. I very, strongly dislike what the largest corporations are doing to this country (and Earth). Yet, I still work for one because I get great health insurance that pays for my girlfriend's chronic, debilitating disease. Without my insurance, her best hope would be............hoping she could still use her hands in a few years because they have crumpled up?


*Sorry for the late reply, I've been off since the 21st and don't go back until the 3rd, and I've been trying to stay away from all forms of social media.I know my initial reply was on Christmas, but I was having a few after dealing with the circus that is my family. 15 kids (my sister has 5) plus all the adults, my bestfriend, etc, it was a shit show!*
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Old 12-28-2018, 02:05 PM   #832
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The weird thing with Vice, years and years ago, I used to subscribe. It used to be a great rag that did great investigative journalism (which is why I originally pursued and received a Journalism degree, JFC, 13 years ago. Not because of VICE, but because I was young and dumb and thought I could make a difference).

It's now been taken over by Ivy League children that think reading the BBC, RT, Al Jazeera, etc, makes you an expert on, basically everything. While having basically no life experience in the country they live in. And all other kinds of ridiculous articles they publish.

His staff now, sucks. 10 years ago they used to do really great, long, well researched and written pieces. Maybe they still do on occasion, but I canceled my subscription when the content moved away from that great stuff to other "issues."
Agreed, I used to watch everything Vice put on YT. They put out lots of good content mixed with a little bit of crap, but for the most part it was decent. A quick glance at their channel now includes "How to Roll a 1/4 Ounce Gingerbread Man Joint" and pieces on desperate women marrying themselves. It's pure garbage.
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Old 12-28-2018, 02:34 PM   #833
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Exactly. I remember reading this great 12-15 page article about traveling across Africa with great pictures on those thick, glossy pages.

Now it's, ugh.
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:08 PM   #834
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i'd left this thread alone for a while, but the situation is evolving.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt-...H9wMxvWKwFhBJ/

it'll be interesting to see whether or not conservatives' viewpoints on gun control change now that people who identify as anti-fascist are bringing their own AR-15s to action-expected events.

thought experiment: if you support first-amendment free speech rights for those who express genocidal white supremacist ideals, do you also support second-amendment rights for those who might feel unsafe because people are expressing them?
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Old 02-04-2019, 06:43 AM   #835
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i'd left this thread alone for a while, but the situation is evolving.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt-...H9wMxvWKwFhBJ/

it'll be interesting to see whether or not conservatives' viewpoints on gun control change now that people who identify as anti-fascist are bringing their own AR-15s to action-expected events.

thought experiment: if you support first-amendment free speech rights for those who express genocidal white supremacist ideals, do you also support second-amendment rights for those who might feel unsafe because people are expressing them?
Well let's make sure we're invoking the 1st Amendment properly.

Many people, on both sides can't tell the difference (or purposefully misconstrue in a desire to further their agenda) between the following two sentences.

1. I dislike X group.
2. X group should be exterminated. And let's get after it.

Those are two vastly different statements, that some decide are the same. Again, it's either stupidity or willful ignorance in attempt to persuade the dummies to lazy to think for themselves.


To the 2nd Amendment, I'm not sure how it's relevant. You could literally use any issue that people are afraid of as justification for the 2nd Amendment.

And I feel that nothing on the Bill of Rights needs justification.

I feel like your question is a purposeful attempt at "gotcha" stuff that doesn't help reasonable debate. Law abiding gun owners are not the problem, much to the disdain of people like Feinstein who has a CCL and a private security team.
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:31 AM   #836
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Why would our views on gun control change? We want to uphold the 2nd for all citizens. Good for them.

Just don't go doing something stupid that ruins it for the rest of us.

Thing about the 2nd that sucks, is that if someone wants more gun control (an extremist), all they have to do is go commit some horrible crime. One of those "ends justify the means" scenarios.
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Old 02-04-2019, 01:32 PM   #837
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I feel like your question is a purposeful attempt at "gotcha" stuff that doesn't help reasonable debate. Law abiding gun owners are not the problem, much to the disdain of people like Feinstein who has a CCL and a private security team.
no, genuinely not. the question in my mind is not "should we alter the 1A/2A", it's about how their implications are manifesting.

my initial response to this was surprise. things seemed to have quieted down for a few months (well, excluding portland, they're hotheads up there) and counter-protesters are showing up strapped. i can adhere to the ideals of both constitutional law and anti-fascism without thinking this is a good development.

it is atlanta; of course this escalation is going to happen in the gun-friendly south before it does in new york or california.

the thought experiment was for me too. i spent a day on it and arrived at the conclusion that even if i owned a firearm (i don't) i wouldn't bring it with me to a protest action. just wearing my "motorcycle safety equipment that is totally not riot gear" draws enough attention from sf/oakland PD. if i were carrying, even open, i'd expect to be felony-stopped proactively. but that's my locality...
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:32 PM   #838
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Oh yeah, taking a firearm to a protest is just, trying to escalate shit just because you can.
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