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Old 09-17-2012, 03:17 PM   #1
Afredo
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E34 auto to manual conversion

hey guys, how difficult/expensive would it be to convert a 95 525i touring from auto to manual?
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:43 PM   #2
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did this in 2010 with a 92 touring+s52+zf5 speed very easy.

you need to wire 3 things in the PRNDL area
replace one relay in the fusebox with OEM manual dummy relay for it to trigger the starter
install clutch setup, connect the reverse switch for lights
driveshaft and gearbox have to match 91/92 cars had zfSG310 gearboxes, 93-95 have getrag G250's.

rear diff needs to change to about 3.23-3.46

otherwise its very straight forward; remove and replace.
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanganstyle View Post
did this in 2010 with a 92 touring+s52+zf5 speed very easy.

you need to wire 3 things in the PRNDL area
replace one relay in the fusebox with OEM manual dummy relay for it to trigger the starter
install clutch setup, connect the reverse switch for lights
driveshaft and gearbox have to match 91/92 cars had zfSG310 gearboxes, 93-95 have getrag G250's.

rear diff needs to change to about 3.23-3.46

otherwise its very straight forward; remove and replace.
how difficult is it to mount the clutch and brake pedal, do you have to do any cutting or anything? and how much would the parts i need cost, i.e. new diff, tranny, etc.? thanks!
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afredo View Post
how difficult is it to mount the clutch and brake pedal, do you have to do any cutting or anything? and how much would the parts i need cost, i.e. new diff, tranny, etc.? thanks!
.XLS spreadsheet is in your future......

Diff depends alot on if old or new. A fully built high spec diff would probably cost more than the value of the e34. Driveshaft/shift linkage is also specific and not that easy to just come by.

unbolt auto pedalbox and bolt in manual pedal box. A brand new stainless steel flex line is much nicer than an old rotten rubber one

My e34 Touring+s52+zf 5mt+3.46 LSD build up was probably in the 4.5-5.5K range on cost for the changeover parts; a UUC stage 2 flywheel and clutch kit also went in at the same time with new consumables everywhere.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
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I have an '89 M20 5 speed sedan as my daily driver.

I am getting another sedan soon, an automatic M50NV car.

I am planning on using all E30 parts for the conversion, including the G260 (will be tilted, so custom trans mounts) and adapting E30 pedals for the job. I have a driveshaft from an M30 car, but I expect that won't be too tough to convert.

When all this happens, I will post the story of how it went if you have not done yours yet, hopefully it will help!

Luke
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:23 PM   #6
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Its pretty easy, wiring is simplistic although wiring modifications to allow cruise control are a little more involved.

we converted a 92 525i M50B25 NV Touring into an M5 / S38B36 Manual with very little wiring involved. Just splice 2 wires for started enablement, and 2 other wires for the reverse lights.

Still working on cruise control, although to be honest i've spent zero time on it.
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StereoInstaller1 View Post
I have an '89 M20 5 speed sedan as my daily driver.

I am getting another sedan soon, an automatic M50NV car.

I am planning on using all E30 parts for the conversion, including the G260 (will be tilted, so custom trans mounts) and adapting E30 pedals for the job. I have a driveshaft from an M30 car, but I expect that won't be too tough to convert.

When all this happens, I will post the story of how it went if you have not done yours yet, hopefully it will help!

Luke
Why hack up pedals when you can just buy a set of e34 pedals for
Dirt and BOLT THEM IN? Sell your e30 pedals to an e30 owner; they are valuable to make auto E30's into manuals. NOT e34's

Sell your g260 and shift linkage, buy a correct g250/zf5 speed for chump change + linkage+ Trans x member and long shaft and bolt it in.
G250 is the oem trans for 93-95 e34 with vanos, 91-92 e34 non vanos cars had the ZF SG310 units. No weird tilting required

M20 flywheel does not directly bolt to a m50 engine. Needs to have the rear ridge shaved/ balanced and surfaced post. Unless you own /work at a machine shop this is not $0 free

in summary; sell e30 changeover as a kit; buy a e34 manual parts car for dirt and swap it all over.

Don't reinvent the wheel, just do it perfect and it will cost you less in the big picture. Hacking shit just means you will pay for it later

Value your own time/labor!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Crivellone View Post

we converted a 92 525i M50B25 NV Touring into an M5 / S38B36 Manual with very little wiring involved. Just splice 2 wires for started enablement, and 2 other wires for the reverse lights.
Actually you don't need to splice anything in the engine bay. Bmw uses a dummy starter relay in the OEM manual transmission e34 cars to bypass this. It's a little yellow Relay that has only 2 pins instead of 5; just remove the auto 5 pin unit and plug in the Oem manual 2 pin unit.

cheap enough to just buy from dealer; also gives you peace of mind that nothing in the fusebox has been modified for electrical safety

Last edited by Wanganstyle; 09-23-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Crivellone View Post
Its pretty easy, wiring is simplistic although wiring modifications to allow cruise control are a little more involved.

we converted a 92 525i M50B25 NV Touring into an M5 / S38B36 Manual with very little wiring involved. Just splice 2 wires for started enablement, and 2 other wires for the reverse lights.

Still working on cruise control, although to be honest i've spent zero time on it.
James, that is pretty much it on a 92, cruise will work as long as your clutch safety switch isn't fubar or just a hair too short on the plunger to fully engage (disengage?) the switch. i used a velcro 'button' to correct the issue.

Also assuming you didn't wire it to be in P all the time to make it start instead of bypassing the relay at the fuse box or using the dummy relay???

And of course the autotrans computer gone and the transprogram defeated which you didn't mention.


on the OP's 95 though, it isn't quite that simple. Their start inhibit relay was relocated into the kick panel, read the bf.c e34 DIY (in particular the links at the beginning) for all the info you need about the start inhibit differences on a 95.

used parts, doing it all yourself, rough estimate $1200-$1500 depending on how complete a swap (grommets, hoses, etc) you get from the donor e34, and what maintenance items you take care of during the swap (new clutch master & slave, flywheel and clutch, diff output seals, etc.

everything from the trans to the diff has to match though, has to be a 3.23 manual diff, and either all getrag, or all zf. other than shift lever+clutch/ hydraulics there isn't commonality until the diff.

Last edited by Onizukachan; 09-27-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizukachan View Post
James, that is pretty much it on a 92, cruise will work as long as your clutch safety switch isn't fubar or just a hair too short on the plunger to fully engage (disengage?) the switch. Assuming you didn't wire it to be in P all the time to make it start instead of bypassing the relay or using the dummy relay.

And of course the autotrans computer gone and the transprogram defeated which you didn't mention.


on the OP's 95 though, it isn't quite that simple. Their start inhibit relay was relocated into the kick panel, read the bf.c e34 DIY (in particular the links at the beginning) for all the info you need about the start inhibit differences on a 95.

used parts, doing it all yourself, rough estimate $1200-$1500 depending on how complete a swap (grommets, hoses, etc) you get from the donor e34, and what maintenance items you take care of during the swap (new clutch master & slave, flywheel and clutch, diff output seals, etc.

everything from the trans to the diff has to match though, 3.23 manual diff, and either all getrag, or all zf. other than shift lever+clutch/ hydraulics there isn;t much commonality until the diff.
Yeah that is my issue at the moment, its always in Park. I'll do the relay trick you mentioned (didn't even realize they did that) and I bet cruise will work.

I just unplugged the transmission computer and have never had a Trans Program error. I do have an E34 M5 cluster though (although its all bus controlled so you figure it would show up)
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:38 PM   #10
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either get the dummy relay, or just go underneath and join the two THICK black with yellow wires under it. that's all the dummy does anyway.
Shoot you can even make your own jumper with a piece of wire and two spades as a temp thing.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:43 PM   #11
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here you go... might as well post it up here also.


DIY 5 speed swap (from a few years back)

First, I would like to offer my public thanks to members Mr. Project and TouringDan for their excellent writeups. In each case, the transmission swaps were a portion of their very involved driveline swaps and the coverage was invaluable.
Please ALSO read over the below links if you are considering this swap:

Mr Project
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=554106

TouringDan
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=729157

And this thread has some good pictorial of stuff i didnt have the time or ability to show due to my
work environment and time constraints
http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Upgrade/5speedswap.htm




Thanks now being concluded, Let me explain what exactly this swap will entail and include...


EDIT: after numerous requests, here is a breakdown of what you need to get.
I will try to keep this generic enough to help m20 m30 and m60 also



Stuff that has to match the trans type:
(on m50s, 91-92= zf, or 93-95 = getrag)

complete trans shifter assembly, guibo, full driveshaft, new DS nuts, complete exhaust hanger,
transmission, trans mounts, trans x-member, slave, slave hardline, Throwout bearing,input shaft bearing, probably the reverse switch wire harness


Stuff from any manual e34:
pedal box, master, master hardlines + softlines. shifter mount, console plate and boot. Grommets for the master-firewall, and the ones in the trans tunnel (one is on the harness, the other I reused the auto and plugged it with window-weld, 3rd is for the manual lever)

Stuff that has to match the engine:
flywheel, flywheel bolts (dual mass and single mass are different), clutch disc and PP. clutch alignment tool.

Stuff that has to match the engine and trans:
yes, the differential. (3.23 for example was ONLY on m50 manuals)


note there are numerous bolts that I don;t have 5 hours to list. they are on the parts car you should get, or the junkyard car you took the parts off of. take them too. basically if it is attached to the trans, or to something attached to the trans, you need it. if it is between the crank, and the Diff's output flanges, you need it.


Goal 1:
Replace GM France auto transmission with a zf310, replace auto pedal box with manual pedal box, replace complete auto transmission driveshaft with manual driveshaft to avoid any rebalancing.

Goal 2:
Replace 4.10 LSD with 3.23 LSD, install new output seals on the 3.23LSD, clean up housing.

My ultimate goal is to:
A: get the car back up and running as soon as possible.
B: minimize the number of changes at one time to more easily facilitate diagnosing any issues
C: document more thoroughly the details of the actual transmission swap so others can more easily replicate it




Goal 1:

Step 1: Electronic trickery
A: enable removal of the assorted electronics while permitting the car to start without the gearshift sensor in N or P.
B: disable Trans program error, disable Gear indicator display, enable removal of trans computer.
C: Find wires for reverse so the manual switch can be connected, and the reverse lights will work
D: Figure out how to connect cruise to clutch pedal switch so it will deactivate


Status- Step 1 a,b,& c -Complete-

Goal 1 Step 1 A:

reference following discussion of 92 and 94 differences, plus alternate start relay wiring options.


See here for info on later cars with the relocated start inhibit switch



Quote:
Originally Posted by Xmon
The starter relay will need to be replaced with a jumper wire from terminal #30 to terminal #87, the terminals are numbered on the underside of the existing relay. Note that the car will now start in any gear with or without the clutch pedal depressed.

See the picture of my test jumper. I did this to make sure I was interpreting the above quote correctly.




pins #2 and #6 on the relay socket itself


It is a good visual reference but I would not recommend you do this as a permanent fix:
For a more permanent fix I pulled the relay socket and joined the two Heavy gauge black w/ yellow wires underneath... cause I didn't have the manual 'relay'.

YOu can save yourself some time and just get a manual "relay" and plug it in. the manual "relay" isn't a relay at all, it has two prongs and simply jumpers the two connectors together, just like I did in the picture above with a piece of wire.




Goal 1 Step 1 B:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
Best place to ground the CC pin is at the splice connector called X511 (black, ~ 12 pin) in front of the gear shift. Pull pin #10, I think it is, from the body side connector. Convenient place to ground it is to remove pin...#5, I think it is...from the A/M manual switch connector. I pop each end into a factory harness connector, plug them together and it looks factory.

I pulled the Trans computer... (EGS), unplugged the A/M and gear selector switch and after doing this (bold in the quote above) it's all good... It comes up "[S] [ ]" for about 10-15 seconds then the lights go out. this is a solution I can live with.


NOTE: The transmission computer is in the right kick panel on tourings, not under the hood.



Btw I simply replaced the socket side of pin 10 with a ground socket from the blue A/M switch connector. I then reconnected the x511 connector.
SO in conclusion...x511 on the pin side was #10 grey wire as normal, but socket side #10 was a brown ground. This was easier to me than pulling them both out into a new connector as lowell suggested.



Goal 1 Step 1 C:

OK, here is where I found the wires for the reverse switch.
They are listed in the wiring diagrams as being 6 and 7 on x511. I found them elsewhere so I did not bother with checking x511...

I used the black 8 pin connector that formerly went into the gear selector switch (In layman's terms: the big long white doohickey that sits just to the right of the gear selector). The wires in question are located on pins 6 and 7 (big surprise... right pins, wrong connector #?) . The factory gear selector bridged these two wires together to trigger the reverse lights, undim the rearview mirror, and also trigger the auto dipping external mirror if the car were so optioned.
Therefore when I install the transmission, I will simply extend the manual's reverse switch harness into the interior as suggested by Shrike071, and connect those two wires to pin 6&7. When in reverse the tranny switch will close, bridging the two pins and triggering all reverse functions.

EDIT: 01 01 08 Hint: the old plug from the clutch switch bypass (that you removed) is a perfect fit for the manual's reverse switch harness, if you grabbed it with the trans.
You can cut the looped wire on the plug, and wire the two ends into the auto's reverse wires, and it will plug right into the Manual transmision's harness

Goal 1 Step 1 D:

Completed...
According to Xmon and Lowell I had it already installed and simply needed to connect it to the switch after removing the jumper.
Thanks again fellows. Removed the Jumper and it plugged right in to the switch.


see new use for the jumper below...






We discussed shift levers in this thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=864518
Very educational for those of you considering a lever swap to shorten the throw.

I originally decided to go with a z3 1.9 as my car will be driven by my wife (not an experienced manual driver) on rare occasions.
This is the same reason (besides budget) I decided on using the dual mass and oem clutch setup.

I later decided to be smart and keep the oem lever and instead buy a new clutch master with the money.

GOAL 1
STEP 2: Pedal Box

Picture will come later.

Auto pedal box is out. Pretty easy job, and not nearly as difficult as it was made out to be.

Remove wood trim, then remove hidden screws from lower dash section, as well as remaining screws. (phillips screwdriver)

Remove lower dash.
Remove knee bolster with a 10mm socket



Remove dash undertray

Unplug all the electrical connectors, and don't forget the SRS (airbag) connector.




I removed the lower shaft by undoing the single bolt on the upper spline section, then driving it off the upper splines and pulling it off the lower splines. Gave me instant easy access with the grinder to knock the head off the "unremovable bolt" and get the upper column off easily. Downside of this is that I will have to reindex the shaft, and/or steering wheel on reassembly. fair trade off i think.





Once the upper shaft is separated, it is easy to pull the upper column out of the car...



All the plugs are different colors and pin counts so the only concern is making sure you unplug the SRS (airbag) connector.
All the bolts and nuts are 13mm.


Once the upper column was out, removing the pedal box was as simple as removing the bolts, pulling the clips that retain the throttle bar and pulling it out out of the pedal box. then unclip the brake pedal and knock the pin out, and you have a loose pedal box ready for removal!
ANd yes I left the pedals hung.





Total time <2 hours. Probably closer to 60 minutes to remove it.

About to go bolt the manual pedal box into the car. Be back shortly.

OK back: Took all of 20 minutes to bolt the new pedal box in place.
PUll the throttle bar down and tuck the box behind it.
USe the 4 nuts around the brake pedal rod to pull the box up and into place squarely... once it gets close, Start the upper bolts but do not tighten them.

Once all 4 are cinched down, the top two would be next followed by the single bolt near the bottom.
Once all 7 are cinched down, the spring for the throttle bar is next. you need to start the end that goes into the pedal box while holding the loop end up, once both side are on, put the bushings into place on the pedal box, then sit in the seat and push each side home with your feet. Attach the clip over the pedal bar, and...
YOU ARE DONE!!!

Just have to reinstall the steering column and reconnect the wiring.




Well finally some under car progress.

Got the exhaust dropped, and just got the heatshield down so I cna finally get to the stuff i need to.


Tools you will need:

10 racheting box for the smaller under manifold heatshield bolts

11 mm and 12mm sockets for the larger under manifold heatshield.

13mm socket and extension for the rear muffler "brackets"

13 and 12 mm box wrench for the middle section.

13mm box and 13 mm socket for the front pipe holder

14mm socket and long extension for the pipe to manifold nuts
you may need a deep well 14 for a couple of them. I did.
A 36" breaker bar will make short work of breaking them loose


13mm socket and short extension for the driveshaft tunnel heat shield

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DRIVESHAFT REMOVAL:

Put new output seals in the 3.23LSD following the instructions from www.bmwe34.net.
Be careful that the seal puller doesn't gouge the walls. you want to pull on the TOP of the seal, not the edge.
I used a hammer and my largest socket (1 1/4" but still not big enough) to start it square and moving constantly around the edge to drive the seal in. any touch up if it got a little tilted I did with a wooden handle.

Then I got the Driveshaft out
18mm for the Guibo bolts/nuts
36" breaker bar to the rescue again... though for a few minutes I wondered if even that was going to be enough.

everything else was 13mm, except the bolt used to split the shaft.
That one was a 17mm.

TIP: break that sucker lose before you take the shaft out... or else you will wind up putting it back in the car with the auto in Park to be able to break it loose.

I checked the rear cv flange of the auto DS on the 3.23... they have a different bolt circle diameter, so it looks like I will definitely have to go immediately to the 3.23LSD to fit the new 5 speed shaft.

I don't want to run the 4.10 LSD as I originally planned because of vibration concerns.
It would require me to mix in match my old rear shaft with the new 5 speed front shaft.
Supposedly they are independently balanced and if you get the PHASE correct you will be ok, but... key word SUPPOSEDLY.
Bettter to run the matched shaft and do the diff at teh same time...
Xmon marked the 'new' shaft before splitting it so I might as well do it all at once.

NOW to learn how to R&R the center support bearing after splitting the shaft.

Thank god for bentleys!


BTW: I think I have come up with an elegant solution for the output shafts... might work, might not, maybe someone knows.
I had a hell of a time trying to break the outboard side loose when I did the kmacs in march, even had one round out requiring an air hammer and chisel blade carefully applied to the outer edge get it to break free, and of course immediate replacement of that one.

SO since the outboards are already broken loose and i can get them off again, I am thinking it MIGHT be possible to take the outboards off, and pull the output shafts and flanges as an assembly, then stab them into the 3.23. This also avoids my current concern over getting it upthere only to find out THEY are different too.
(May sounds crazy, but I only recently heard of varying sized input flanges on the final drive for auto and 5 speed variants, and to immediately find the issue on my own swap makes me paranoid about everything else).

Final thoughts for the night.

Man it is some nasty work and a real pita, but I feel a real sense of pride in being able to say "I did it all myself, in my own garage, with no lift and no air tools..."
And if I can do it, then so can you.





Guys: got the auto diff out this afternoon.
EASY...

My Idea worked fine, and I was able to remove the flange and output shaft together after lifting the suspension a couple of inches for clearance.

I only did this because I had so much trouble getting the outboard side loose last march, and the inners are even harder to get to. I didn't want to round one out again.

only 3 19mm bolts to remove the diff. Crazy.

drain and fill plugs are 14mm allens.
I couldn't get the fill plug out since I don't have one so I filled mine with 1.7 liters of mobil 75/90 thru the drain plug that Xmon had already loosened. After all what is a few more ounces when dealing with a 90 lb centersection? then I was able to use a 14mm headed bolt and a nut to TIGHTEN the drain plug.

i swapped the speed sensors just to be on the safe side, and put the old one in the old diff which i will keep along with the rear shaft just incase I ever need or feel the urge to put the 4.10 back in.

My take... lowered the diff to better reach the safety wire, then raised it back up to easier pull the plug.
once the diff was out a 1/4 drive 10mm socket up top and an offset box end 10mm on the lower.

And yes guys, the manual diffs do have a different flange than the autos, so get the complete shaft if doing a swap. you need the front half for the length, and the back half forthe manual diff flange... unless you are not swapping thediffs over... and you should.





Decided that it would be wiser to live with the stock shift lever for now, and instead spend the money on a new clutch master. Better safe than sorry















Here you can see how I pulled the column apart to access the irremovable bolt.
To me it was easier this way, but there are several ways of accomplishing the same thing.
lowell 's way, shrike071 's way, xmon's /mr project's way...








Here you can see that you do not have to take the throttle pedal etc off the bar. Just pop the bar out of the lower column, and pull it down out of the way when removing the lower column.





I'll move stuff around later,



Well finally some under car progress.

Got the exhaust dropped, and just got the heatshield down so I cna finally get to the stuff i need to.


Tools you will need:

10 racheting box for the smaller heatshield bolts

11 mm and 12mm sockets for the larger heat shield.

13mm socket and extension for the rear muffler "brackets"

13 and 12 mm box wrench for the middle section.

13mm box and 13 mm socket for the front pipe holder

14mm socket and long extension for the pipe to manifold nuts
you may need a deep well 14 for a couple of them. I did.
A 36" breaker bar will make short work of breaking them loose


13mm socket and short extension for the heat shield



not much accomplished tonight, sorry.
Decided to spend some time with the Family enjoying "Monday Movie Night" since I spent a lot of time last night under the car.

Put new output seals in the 3.23LSD following the instructions from www.bmwe34.net. be careful that the seal puller doesn't gouge the walls. you want to pull on the TOP of the seal, not the edge.
I used a hammer and my largest socket (1 1/4" but still not big enough) to start it square and moving constantly around the edge to drive the seal in. any touch up if it got a little tilted I did with a wooden handle.

Then I got the Driveshaft out
18mm for the Guibo bolts/nuts
36" breaker bar to the rescue again... though for a few minutes I wondered if even that was going to be enough.

everything else was 13mm, except the bolt used to split the shaft.
That one was a 17mm.

TIP: break that sucker lose before you take the shaft out... or else you will wind up putting it back in the car with the auto in Park to be able to break it loose.

I checked the rear cv flange of the auto DS on the 3.23... they have a different bolt circle diameter, so it looks like I will definitely have to go immediately to the 3.23LSD to fit the new 5 speed shaft.

Last edited by Onizukachan; 09-27-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:16 PM   #12
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any updates?
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:47 PM   #13
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I'm going to do this on my '95 525iT also and TouringDan's DIY is the best source for this swap--I was gonna link to that. Thanks.

One thing that's not mentioned that is key is to find a '91 or '92 donor car with the ZF trans. The Getrags will eventually blow up. If you see the two transmissions side by side you'll see why--the ZF is a much larger and beefier unit.

Still searching for my donor car. Luckily, around here you can get them reasonable since most are seriously cancer-ridden.
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:24 AM   #14
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no they won't. Who told you that?

getrags are perfectly fine unless you are planning to run 400+ ft/lbs thru them.
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:26 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by russll5951 View Post
any updates?
to whom was this directed?

Me? yeah I finished mine years ago, drove it for a long time, sold it and wish i had my minty BoB Touring back.
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