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Old 05-15-2019, 10:03 AM   #2911
parkerbink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wschnitz View Post
Starting to look like the Admin will push for War in Iran.

Just what we need, more billions spent on a war with no motive beyond antagonizing the middle east for war profiteers.
The British say they see no increase in Iran's build up.

I'm afraid it's a distraction.

Also on the lies, yes all pols lie, no one has lied at the level, frequency and broad range of topics as Trump.

If Trump told me my name, I'd check my license.
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:23 PM   #2912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wschnitz View Post
Starting to look like the Admin will push for War in Iran.

Just what we need, more billions spent on a war with no motive beyond antagonizing the middle east for war profiteers.
"Starting?" Ha. This has been the plan all along! This is the worst.

I think a lot of us were like, well, Trump campaigned as an isolationist, he would at least be less Imperialist than Clinton. It's all total BS.

Before he was even elected they were having meetings with the Saudis and the Israelis and the UAE and Erik Prince to gin up a war in Iran.

How on Earth does someone put a complete idiot like John Bolton in power? Trump does. This is a dangerous, score settling, chicken hawk person that should not be anywhere near leading us into war with Iran.

The Trump Admin. is Bush foreign policy all over again and it's a complete mess.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:22 AM   #2913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipj View Post

The Trump Admin. is the Military-Industrial Complex foreign policy all over again and it's a complete mess.
Fixed that for you.

Or did you forget all the Libya, Yemen, and the other countries Obama bombed as well?
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:11 PM   #2914
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Iran isn't Iraq, they're a much stronger country.
Also, the Russians wouldn't miss an opportunity to embarrass us. I would fully expect T-14 tanks, S-400 Sam and troops should we try the same shit we did in other parts of the Middle East.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:48 PM   #2915
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Fixed that for you.

Or did you forget all the Libya, Yemen, and the other countries Obama bombed as well?
Gosh, Thanks.
All these regime-change escapades are huge mistakes whether under Obama or under Trump or under Bush or Clinton or Reagan or whatever neo-con / neo-liberal Imperialist President & Administration we have next... But we can speak in generalities and the past, or we can speak in specifics here about Iran and right now.

Most likely the best answer is not to waste time conversing here at all.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:39 AM   #2916
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I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a general reshaping of the Middle East through armed conflict in the next 20 years.

I just wish we would stay out of it. It's not like WWII where there was a clear evil in Nazi Germany that needed to be vanquished, both the Saudis and Iranians have deplorable human rights volations, extremist religious laws, and are both very interested in staying regressive. It's not really a win-win for anyone.

We could change our policy to be less dependant on Saudi oil, and restructure our energy systems, but that's a 50-year solution, but I digress.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM   #2917
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I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a general reshaping of the Middle East through armed conflict in the next 20 years.

I just wish we would stay out of it. It's not like WWII where there was a clear evil in Nazi Germany that needed to be vanquished, both the Saudis and Iranians have deplorable human rights volations, extremist religious laws, and are both very interested in staying regressive. It's not really a win-win for anyone.

We could change our policy to be less dependant on Saudi oil, and restructure our energy systems, but that's a 50-year solution, but I digress.
There are two schools of thought here as far as intervention/non-intervention

If you perceive the use of chemical weapons and persecutions that some of these countries commit upon their own people as clear evil, than you would support intervention in the name of protecting those people.

There is a doctrine within the UN known as the Responsibility to Protect Doctrine, which basically allows countries to defy the sovereignty of other nations in the name of protecting the people within those borders. The origination of this doctrine was the idea that individual people would never be able to stand up to their own governments and military so there had to be a directive in the UN to protect the individual.

If you don't believe that the protection of the individual is important outside of the US, than you certainly don't believe in intervention. There is a practicality here that asks, what is the alternative? The line can certainly be blurred between Right to Protect and Regime change and there is a large portion of foreign policy study devoted to issues of sovereignty as applied to Right to Protect.

I have wavered between the between addressing humanitarian concerns and asking if it is even possible to set up any sort of stable society in these areas, so personally, I don't know that I have a solid stance on the issue. In recent times, during the Obama years it appeared as though the Green Revolution would bring regime change within several Middle Eastern countries and so I don't fault the Obama administration for attempting to aid in these movements as they began from within and the US was only involved after they gained momentum rather than being the catalyst for it. The current Syrian Crisis doesn't really fit that mold and I therefore don't really support US involvement there outside of trying to resolve the differences between the Kurds and Turkey as the Kurds have been significant allies of the US and deserve our aid.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM   #2918
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I think we should just stay the f--- out. When has any of our intervention in the ME ever been positive?
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Old Yesterday, 05:02 PM   #2919
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I think we should just stay the f--- out. When has any of our intervention in the ME ever been positive?
I tend to agree. The middle east is a centuries old religion and war torn area where Western intervention is only going to stoke fires. The humanitarian issue sucks of course. Proverbial damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Old Today, 05:18 AM   #2920
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Gulf War I is an example of the US, along with a UN coalition intervening in the Middle East and doing it successfully.

The main difference between the Gulf War I and the more recent conflicts in the Middle East is that the US and Coalition forces had a defined objective, push Iraq out of Kuwait. When they accomplished that goal the war ended.

People questioned Bush I for leaving Saddam in power, but this was actually a smart move because it retained the balance of power within the Middle East, and it proved that the US would not allow one sovereign nation to violate another sovereign nation's territory.

Saddam was very much weakened by Gulf War I, a leader who remained powerful within his own country, but was largely neutered outside of it.

Unfortunately, Bush II didn't have his father's capacity for seeing the larger picture.

You can also make the case that the US's intervention in the form of arms sales to Israel and the subsequent deal brokering creating the Camp David Accords was positive intervention in the Egypt-Israel War.

There are examples, most people are so tainted by the recent failures to be able to look further back than 2003.
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Old Today, 06:40 AM   #2921
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Gulf War I is definitely different than the last few decades of "regime change." As you said, they invaded another country, and the world said, "Nah son."

Very different than dropping bombs on say, Libya for example. Which of course was precipitated by Sarkozy. Because who was the largest importer of Libyan oil?
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