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Old 06-09-2019, 09:20 AM   #2956
mrsleeve
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Originally Posted by Wschnitz View Post
Pretending family farms still exist in a sum large enough to matter is also misleading.
yet again you have no idea what your sputtering on about, and think that big bad corporations have taken over. You have been to WI nearly all those "big farms" you drive by are still Family owned operations. Family farms account for about 99% of all farming operations and are responsible for about 90% of all the AG. production in the US, I guess that is not a large enough sum to quantify for you then???


https://nifa.usda.gov/family-farms

From the USDA.... Small family farms account for nearly 2m of the nearly 2.1m Family owned farming operations in the USA. While much of the production comes from the larger of these family owned operations to say the family farm dose not exist is beyond ignorant of the facts surrounding where your food comes from, but also very "we are the 99%" "down with the corporations" intellectually dishonest



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Under this definition, the National Agricultural Statistics Serviceís Census of Agriculture reported that family farms account for almost 96 percent of the 2,204,792 farms in the United States.

The census makes the following useful distinctions among these family farms, based initially on their gross annual sales:

Very large family farms (101,265) gross over $500,000
Large family farms (86,551) gross between $250,000 and $500,000
Small family farms (1,925,799) gross under $250,000
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:09 AM   #2957
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it's just incredibly ridiculous & ironic how this idiot president is running around crowing about how terrible 'socialism' is and how he alone will defend 'the free market' in his tweets and tv appearances all the while slapping tariffs on everyone and handing out bailouts to only those he picks and chooses.

It's crazytown.
this.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:32 AM   #2958
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Where's the dishonesty in this conversation or the ignorance?
People typically start the ad hominem when they don't have anything of substance.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:22 PM   #2959
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I'm still waiting for Sleeve to justify his hypocrisy, I suspect he won't.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:02 PM   #2960
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I'm still waiting for someone to actually answer the question myself. For all the bloviating and self love, sleeve and naples both failed to actually read and answer the question.

The question was not, "why are there farm subsidies?". The question was specific, explain your hypocrisy on welfare for private business versus welfare for citizens. Z31 used health care. I'll use one more inline with this discussion. Foodstamps. Because funding for Foodstamps is part of the same bill.

Why are you ok with welfare for private business but not ok with welfare for actual citizens? After all, shouldn't the free market take care of the agricultural issues?

A prime example of hypocrisy is republicans demanding work requirements and drug testing for food stamps. While also fighting against those recieving subsidies having to prove they actively work within farming. All in the same bill.

Last edited by CarpHunter; 06-10-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:34 PM   #2961
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Originally Posted by CarpHunter View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to actually answer the question myself. For all the bloviating and self love, sleeve and naples both failed to actually read and answer the question.

The question was not, "why are there farm subsidies?". The question was specific, explain your hypocrisy on welfare for private business versus welfare for citizens. Z31 used health care. I'll use one more inline with this discussion. Foodstamps. Because funding for Foodstamps is part of the same bill.

Why are you ok with welfare for private business but not ok with welfare for actual citizens? After all, shouldn't the free market take care of the agricultural issues?

A prime example of hypocrisy is republicans demanding work requirements and drug testing for food stamps. While also fighting against those recieving subsidies to prove they actively work within farming. All in the same bill.
I didn't take a stand one way or another. Just pointed out how they work. I feel not only this case, but just about all cases, it's stupid and dishonest to try to compare two totally different industries to one another. It's not apples to apples. No two industries are the same. I personally don't like subsidies, tax breaks/loopholes for industries, or private businesses, at any level, local or fed (to me its favoritism and unconstitutional and means the govt is willfully rewarding and punishing business). I would say that farm subsidies overall positively impact everyone by keeping prices in check as stated. By doing so, one could argue it is actually costing taxpayers less by lowering food prices, cost of living, and hence the poverty level. However, I have no data to back that up, just a presumption.

Is there hypocrisy with Republicans? Really? They are politicians aren't they. Just as there is with Democrats. Do I think you should work to receive welfare? Absolutely yes. I'm not familiar with the proving you work on a farm bill you stated, but hell yeah, if you want a subsidy or welfare for a farm then yeah, prove it is an active farm. I don't agree with everything, or probably even the majority of Republicans on every issue, or any party for that matter. Republicans have certainly strayed from their ideals, which is why I don't put party over my ideals/morals. If you put your faith in man, or a party you will be disappointed everytime. That said they seem to have gone less totally batshit crazy then the dems, but neither party ( or people for that matter) seem to be very sane these days.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:38 PM   #2962
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Wasn't digging at you Naples. Just saying that you didn't answer the actual question. As a whole, farm subsidies are nothing more than government price fixing. Subsidies are actually for like 7 crops, these crops together only account for something like 25-28% of total agricultural output. Yet these same crops account for 90-95% of all subsidy payments. Meaning that 2/3 of agriculture operates without the government just fine. It's telling that these crops also are almost entirely for export. The real hypocrisy is that this is a man made situation currently. The bailouts that were referenced are entirely due to trump's tariffs.

The whole idea of price inflation without the subsidies is dubious at best. As stated above, 2/3 of the industry operates without subsidies just fine. What's interesting is that 2/3 is almost entirely food crops, stuff humans eat. Whereas the subsidized side is mainly feed crops, i.e one's meant for animal feed. It's also telling that the rest of the world operates just fine without subsidizing agriculture.

If you want to get an idea of what is happening, look into the u.s. sugar policy. It's an extreme example of what's occurring with the other subsidized crops. Straight up social engineering. On average, americans are paying 80-85% more than other countries for sugar.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:36 PM   #2963
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Sugar is a whole different beast from the corn, soybean, rice, wheat, and cotton subsidies and I am totally against the way it is has been handled. It’s days are numbered I hope, as the fed and state of Fl will eventually take over US sugar lands for Everglades restoration (which price agreed per acre is also insane).

Bailouts and subsidies are two different things, which I am sure you know. Trump, to his credit, was looking to scale back subsidies before the trade war with China started. Obviously things changed. I am for smaller govt and liked that Ted Cruz when campaigning in Iowa actually had a spine and told farmers to their faces he would cut back on Corn and Ethanol subsidies. Anyway, while I am not for bailouts, what did anyone expect would happen? He was going to turn his back on the base that elected him? Is this a man made situation, sure. Did Trump create it? I am going to say 50/50. He created it in the fact he has been the first president to take on the unequal trade practices with China. So yes by actually facing the problem I suppose you could say he created it, but you also would need to acknowledge that it is not as much of his making as it is more of many presidents from both parties turning a blind eye to an increasing problem. I think Trump sees our economy is in a strong enough position at the moment, compared to China, that this is the time to try to force a deal.
Is it risky? Yup. Which is why he is the first to take it on. I don’t like tariffs(just a synonym for tax) but am willing to see what comes of it. The US is in the position of power for this deal, and I think if Trump can wait out China it will work in our benefit. China will no doubt try to wait out his term if they think he won’t be re-elected. So in summary if his bailout results in a more equitable trade deal than it will be a good investment, which is the way I view it right now as an investment to create a better deal trade agreement.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:33 PM   #2964
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While I don't wholey disagree with you. I think we're getting off track from the original question. We can discuss the validity of the farm subsidy system endlessly. Suffice it to say, my belief is that at the end of the day it's a flawed system. And a hypocritical one if you also are for free market ideology. All it does is support businesses that should otherwise have died off. Breading inefficiency and poor quality, at tax payers expense.

Now back to the main question at hand. How can you support welfare for business, but not for citizens?
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:00 PM   #2965
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You frame it as a false alternative. If you don’t support x you must support y or if you support x you must support y. Again trying to compare two completely different things as a false equivalence. I am for welfare with conditions. However even the best medicines are fatal with the wrong dose right? Same is true for welfare or any govt program that can be abused. I don’t think welfare should be comfortable enough to illicit complacency of it. I also think one should work or volunteer or contribute energy in some way to receive help. It gets dicey with homes with children who’s guardians misuse funds or resources from govt programs. I honestly don’t know how you punish the abuser without also having children suffer the consequences. However, that is life. Every child for good or bad life is dictated by their parents decisions. I feel it’s good for recipients to have a stake in it and good for personal moral.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:00 PM   #2966
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So, we going to war with Iran, or nah?
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:45 PM   #2967
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So, we going to war with Iran, or nah?


I hope they can come up with some actual proof... but they wonít because thatís all BS
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:10 PM   #2968
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I hope they can come up with some actual proof... but they wonít because thatís all BS
silly simon, we don't need actual proof to go to war in the middle east
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:54 AM   #2969
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I hope not as well.

We have lost enough soldiers already.
More to suicide everyday.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:12 AM   #2970
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silly simon, we don't need actual proof to go to war in the middle east
"The hijackers were from Saudi Arabia?"

"Hmmm, Afghanistan and Iraq it is!"
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